losermitchell_2005: Hey
chrstman: hi
losermitchell_2005: wassup?
chrstman: How are you?
losermitchell_2005: good:) u?
chrstman: Alright
chrstman: Thought about talking a Vacation Day Friday
chrstman: have Dentist appointment tomorrow
losermitchell_2005: fun.....
chrstman: (Need one though, a vacation)
losermitchell_2005: tomorrow I am going to a slumber party tomorrow 
chrstman: whose?
losermitchell_2005: a friend from Living Miracles (singing group) her name is Mindy (she is blind:) but awesome)
chrstman:
chrstman: blind, huh, she get blind or born as such?
losermitchell_2005: -born blind
chrstman: oh
losermitchell_2005: yup I pity her but then other time I think of it as well the first time she will see is when she is standing in front of Jesus..... and that would be kewl the first thing you see is Christ
chrstman:
losermitchell_2005:
chrstman: She does not get to see herself
chrstman: Well, if she were to marry, you know it would not be for looks...
chrstman: Which is a good question, she would not really know if they were just talking to her because of her looks 8-}
losermitchell_2005: true she would never know but once she was engaged but broke it off because she found out he was cheating on her
chrstman: ? uhh, that was just plain mean.
losermitchell_2005: yeah it was that the part about being blind on why I pity her..... she will get tossed around by guys...... and people will neglect her and leave her..... thats what I would hate..... she is 23 and thats why she LOVES LM because we don't neglect her... we are always with her and caring for her and she told me that it makes her feel younger
chrstman: man
chrstman: she must have been in relationships... (like ignorant, no offense, people do; there is a better means....)
chrstman: ** wasn't speaking of you there either
losermitchell_2005: I know.... she has been in many "relationships" but know she is at the standing that she doesn't really want anyone and doesn't really want a family..... how would she take care of them and she said if she si to have a family God will bring him to her
losermitchell_2005: now*
chrstman: now? where in that sentence?
losermitchell_2005: I said know and I meant now
chrstman: k
chrstman: such things will get you to think
losermitchell_2005: yeah
losermitchell_2005: have you ever heard of Bill Gothard??
chrstman: Gather?
losermitchell_2005: no
chrstman: No
losermitchell_2005: Gothard
losermitchell_2005: he was the seminar thing I went to ......2 weeks ago..... well he doesn't believe in dating........ he said it's not biblical but instead courtship is biblical
chrstman: oh
chrstman: I do not really believe in it neither...
chrstman: You can think of it this way:
chrstman: American (a dating culture) has the highest the divorce rate. Other such countries (which have arranged marriages) have a lower divorce rate.
chrstman: ** America
chrstman: Have you read Joshua Harris' book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye or his other one Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello To Courtship?
losermitchell_2005: nope
chrstman: He says this, it more a matter of the heart, not what it is called (dating or courtship). But if you think about it, would not both be the same?
losermitchell_2005: well courtship is differnet I think
chrstman: 
losermitchell_2005: all I know is courtship the guy has to ask MY father before he can "court" me
chrstman: Well, daing would/could be the same
chrstman: ** dating
losermitchell_2005: yeah thats why I am confused
chrstman: 
chrstman: Since he said Courtship was Biblical and Dating wasn't, what did he say was the difference (or did he not say the difference, or just say what courstship was)?
chrstman: ** not say there was a difference
losermitchell_2005: well he said dating has the wrongmotive, goal, idea, and results
chrstman: That is true, but could have the same goal as courtship
chrstman: ** but
chrstman: ** but "dating" could have
losermitchell_2005: the definition of dating he gave was...... 2 fathers agreeing to work with a qualified young man to win the daughter for marriage.......but I don't like that idea
chrstman: huh?
losermitchell_2005: oh here I will type this up he has here the rewards of courtship
chrstman: "2 fathers agreeing to work with a qualified young man to win the daughter for marriage..." strange, not sure understand, and don't think ever heard anything like that.
losermitchell_2005: *gives new freedom in friendships *avoids envy and jealousy *Allows dedication to please the Lord (dating violates I Corinthians 7:31-34) *promotes self-control and moral purity *provides for objective evaluation *Eliminates defrauding and bitterness *Bases marriage on God's will(dating conclusions change.) *Honor the Father's authority
chrstman: ty for typing that out
losermitchell_2005: no problem
chrstman: But, I still believe (and learn this too, not boasting though), a friendship (You already [know] about this though).
chrstman: Dating could also be defined the same as courtship.
losermitchell_2005: yeah
chrstman: See, one could argue that they could do those things in Dating, i.e. Avoid envy, seek moral purity, et al.
losermitchell_2005: yeah
chrstman:
losermitchell_2005: I guess why I still kinda believe in dating/courtship is that I want to KNOW where things are going. I don't want to be left in the dark on where things are going and not even know
chrstman: A friendship does not cause hurt and pain, and is a clear thing.
chrstman: Then if he purposes, then one has to make a decision.
chrstman: If they have been friends long enough, it should not be hard for them to make such a choice (answer such a question).
losermitchell_2005: but the decision would be easier to make if you KNEW for sure where things were going
chrstman: If he ask, then would one not know?
chrstman: where you think a purposal is leading to? Marriage, i.e. "Will you marry me?" That is what a purposal is. lol But you knew that.
losermitchell_2005: yeah but you would either go one of 2 ways...... 1 so confussed on what to say you want to wait and think about it but are afraid to hurt him making him think you are going to say no when you are really thinking on whether he is "the one" OR 2 you are swept by the moment and say yes
chrstman: Double mindeness?
chrstman: in a true friendship, its mean purpose is not marriage, and if no marriage takes place, no one is hurt, because the main goal is just being friends. If one does happen, then surly a great marriage has taken place.
chrstman: ** main (not mean)
losermitchell_2005: YES and since Marriage was not the purpose one is "swept away" and the thought and needs time but not sure they have it
chrstman: In the frienship, one can clearly (no clouded mind) see the other and how he truly is, and be able to determine or not if he would make a good husband, father, et al.
chrstman: In a friendship, there needs be no rushing, one can take their time...
losermitchell_2005: well dating "relationships" come out of friends...... instead of going from friends to marriage you go from friends to bf an gf so that it is SURE for a time that it could lead that way and if nothing happens then well yeah there will be hurt BUT not commitment
chrstman: I don't really believe in b/f & g/f
losermitchell_2005: I know
chrstman: You go back to dating
chrstman:
losermitchell_2005: ok instead of going from friends to marriage you go from friends to dating
losermitchell_2005: no commitment and time to realize that it COULD lead somewhere and if it doens't then well no commitment was made
chrstman: What is one able to do in a friendship?
losermitchell_2005: ???
chrstman: typing
chrstman:
) Able to think clearly. Determine if one would make a good hushand, father, et al.
) Able to have time to see if anything (a marriage that is) would be possible...
) ... et al. Nothing but time, and not worrying about not getting with one, i.e. worried about losing the "chance" of being with him, and getting to know if could be married to him... et al
) etc. etc.
losermitchell_2005: yes taking all of that okay I will make a scenario......... I am friends with a guy for a long time and I like his personality his commitment to God his voice, etc... and "like" him I find out he feels the same AKA he asks me out.... he asks my father if it is ok with him that we date and dad says YES later on we find our feelings are true and get married......... its the same thing as you were saying just there was NO commitment and No pressure........ there was time to make the decision Together
chrstman: How'd get to talking about this, anyways, lol.
losermitchell_2005: I don't know
chrstman: huh?
losermitchell_2005: OH talkiing about Mindy and her engagement being broken I think
chrstman: "no pressure... etc." _ about what you were saying
losermitchell_2005: huh on what????
losermitchell_2005: no pressure to make the decision (that you NEVER THOUGHT OF) right away
chrstman: There is no pressure
losermitchell_2005: but there is...... okay if you proposed to some girl and she says...."wow umm you will have to let me think about it." what will you think....."oh she will say yes." OR "well there is something about me worth questioning maybe she doesn't like me"
chrstman: No, we are just friends, it will not matter what she says. If she says, no, then we can still be good friends. If she says yes, then I have a good wife and a very good friend, and we know one another well, and (with God's help of course) be able interact in the marriage well (or should be able to at the least).
losermitchell_2005: but will it ACTUALLY be like that...... if she says no then you had feelings for her that she apparently didn't have for you and then you are still friends yes but you are pushing away a little because even though you don't admit it you were hurt and she pushes away because she knows she hurt you AND she knows you had and could still have feelings for her and she is a little "uncomfortable"
chrstman: Not really, you were just friends... etc., it's not about feelings, i.e. an emotional of selfishness..., it's about their happiness and their benefit, et al.
losermitchell_2005: r u saying marriage is not based around love?
chrstman: It's more of a logical decisison
chrstman: Let me quote something to you (if that be okay)
losermitchell_2005: ok
chrstman: "Did you know that the idea of marriage based on romantic affection is a very recent development in human affairs? Prior to A.D. 1200, weddings were arranged by the families of the bride and groom, and it never occurred to anyone that they were supposed to "fall in love." In fact, the concept of romantic love was actually popularized by William Shakespeare. There are times when I wish the old Englishman was here to help us straighten out the mess that he initiated [started]." - Dr. James Dobson.
chrstman: From his book, Emotions: Can You Trust Them?, chapter 2.
chrstman: Entitled, Romantic Love
losermitchell_2005: so r u saying that marriage is not based on Love
losermitchell_2005: ???
chrstman: That is a fact. It was not based on romantic affection.
chrstman: Love is something you grow into, you grow to love your wife.
chrstman: Here's another quote (short):
losermitchell_2005: ok
chrstman: from the same chapter
chrstman: Item 1: "Love at first sight" occurs between some people--true or false?
chrstman: Though some reader will disagree with me, love at first sight is a physical and emotional impossibility. Why? Because love is not simply a feeling of romantic excitement; it goes beyond intense sexual attraction; it exceeds the thrill at having "captured" a highly desirable social prize. These are emotions that are unleashed at first sight, but they do not constitute love. (not finished yet)
losermitchell_2005: yes very true..... I don't believe in love at first sight.........but I do believe you should love and know the person BEFORE you enter marriage
chrstman: I wish the whole world knew that fact. These temporary feelings differ from love in that they place the spotlight on the one experiencing them. "What is happening to Me ? This is the most fantastic thing I've ever been through! I think I am in love!"
chrstman: ...
chrstman: Real love, in contrast to popular notions, is an expression of the deepest appreciation for another human being; it is an intense awareness of his or her needs and longings for the past, present and future. It is unselfish and giving and caring. And believe me these are not attitudes one "falls" into at first sight, as though he were tumbling into a ditch.
chrstman: I have developed a life long love for my wife, but it was not something I fell into. I grew into it, and that process took time. I had to know her before I could appreciate the depth and stability of her character--to become acquainted with the nuances of her personality, which I now cherish. The familiarity from which love has blossomed simply could not be generated on "Some enchanted evening...across a crowded room." One cannot love an unknown object, regardless of how attractive or sexy or nubile it is! [End of quote] - Dr. James Dobson, chapter 2 Romantic Love, (c)1980
chrstman: longer than though, sorry
losermitchell_2005: thats ok
chrstman: ** thought
chrstman:
losermitchell_2005: but I agree with that (it is not hard for an ugly pperson to agree that love is not sexual attraction) but I am not talking about physical attraction OR sexual attraction but more of a Godly attraction
losermitchell_2005: I guess you can put it
chrstman: So, one must be attracted to one before they marry. Think about it. Other countries have arranged marriages (do they have "feelings" for one another) and have a lower divorce rate. America, a higher divorce rate, and does not arrange marriages. Well,
chrstman: Need to be going to bed. It's 10pm now. Sorry for bothering you though. Enjoyed talking with you Michelle. God bless you and take care.
chrstman: Good night and sweet dreams.
chrstman: But if you want to say anything before going, then you may (no replies back either ).
losermitchell_2005: you didn't bother me I enjoyed talking to you today..... I was trying to understand how what you are saying can take place I guess... well g'night and God Bless
chrstman:
chrstman: Well, will leave you with this question to ponder then, and can tell you of an experince (but not of that now though).
chrstman: If you elimate, dating, then would you not have to elimate courtship also? One could argue that dating is the same as courtship. In otherwords, they could say they do the same in dating.
chrstman: Bubye
losermitchell_2005: bubyes
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